Rock-climbing Jesus?
2007 September 18
My friend James just sent me this little gem.
The most offensive thing about it is that Jesus would surely not play for the Dallas Cowboys. Surely.
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I agree. Jesus is on the side of the poor…
he looks like that freaky burger king guy. not a person I would always want with me.
this is similar to some figurines that were on conan once. only, in those statues it shows jesus shoving a kid out of the way to get to the soccerball. priceless.
Rustin, I just happened upon your blogsite through blogrush. As I was browsing around, I saw these Jesus action-hero figurines. I am absolutely puzzled… Don’t Christians believe Jesus to be G-d? If so, how can you find humor in something so very disrespectful? I am not a Christian, and I am even a bit offended. I guess I just don’t understand.
Paul,
I suspected the Cowboys crack would provoke a response from you. Now I know what to get you for Christmas.
Kim,
Funny. You’re right.
Donna,
I remember those. Classic.
Daniel Abrahamson,
Thanks for posting. Unfortunately, I am puzzled as well! So you illustrate my point exactly. These figurines are part of what reflective Christians refer to as ‘Jesus Junk’ – and I wish this were the worst of it. Disrespectful? Probably. Irreverent? Likely. But those are points we could agree on.
I have no doubts that the designer of these action figures is trying to get at something I believe is very true – that Jesus, because he is God, is present with us in all we do, that all of life is sacred and we could live in that awareness.
I’ve chose to respond with humor as an irenic, winsome way to point out the non sequitor – that turning this great premise of Christianity (Christ’s presence) into ridiculous action figures probably accomplishes the exact opposite of its intention. Rather than honor Jesus, it trivializes Jesus, leaving both you and me scratching our heads.
So I’m choosing to be provoked (toward engaging the conversation) rather than to be offended (toward disengaging from the conversation).
Observant Jews won’t even print the full name of G-d out of reverence for the Name…in fact, many simply refer to Him as HaShem, which is Hebrew for “the name,” for it is written, “You shall not take the Name of HaShem in vain, for HaShem will not absolve anyone who takes His Name in vain.” Exodus 20:7 The point here is the reverence that should be shown toward your savior. I believe Jesus (Y’shua), to have been a kosher Rabbi among Hillel and Shammai during 1st century. He deserves to be respected, and I think we agree on that point.
There is also the point that you consider him to be
G-d, which would beg the question, “Doesn’t this violate the prohibition of making a graven image, as it is written, “You shall not make yourself a carved image nor any likeness of that which is IN THE HEAVENS ABOVE or on the earth below or in the water beneath the earth,”? Exodus 20:4
How do you interpret these verses? I am interested in your thoughts…L’shalom.
Daniel,
Great thoughts. I appreciate the conversation. I could go along with most of what you are saying here, so I concede the point about reverence. It might help you to know that I, and I think most of my readers, grew up in “American Evangelical Christianity” which has given us a myopic view of our own faith, as well as a pendulum swing toward informality in worship and relationship to religion.
Yet Christians believe that in Jesus, God has come near in a way that invites us into a familial relationship. So there is a tension created between utmost reverence and intimate friendship. You are so right in observing that we have gone too far and lost some much needed reverence. Because that is not what we’ve been handed down, we could use an occasional reminder.
While I recognize this, I don’t have much of a solution for it. One of the ways I think people wake up to these realities is through a prophetic voice that calls them to see the absurdity of these ‘action-figure’ kinds of practices. In this case, the prophetic voice is humor – which is not unfounded as a Biblical approach.
Two things I’d love to hear more from you about:
1. The only material we have to go on (that I’m aware of) concerning what Jesus did and taught are found in the Christian Bible. If you take what Jesus did and said as it is recorded as reasonably accurate (which I admit I do), then Jesus could not be a ‘kosher Rabbi’ – to paraphrase C. S. Lewis, Jesus has not left that option open to us. Either he is is what he says, he is lying (or his closest friends were lying), or he’s some kind of egomaniacal madman. Or so the argument goes…
“HaShem” – I like that. Thanks for that insight.
2. Your question about graven images is beyond my expertise to answer, but I can tell you what I think: “Graven image” is not simply an image representing God visually, but is an image or object intended to be worshiped as God, or an object that contains God. So signs, symbols, art, etc… that point us to God are not prohibited. One could argue that all creation is an image pointing to God. Certainly humankind is made in the ‘image’ of God as a re-presentation of God in creation.
What makes image-making dangerous is when that image/object becomes something in which we think we have contained God – when we make the thing a god itself. That concept of a ‘graven image’ goes beyond a sculpture (or sadly, an action figure!) and also should be a warning toward thinking we could fully contain God in a system of thought, a certain tradition, or even in a religion. God, as God is, transcends any attempt to re-present God, in things like…a golden calf or crucifix (obviously), but also things like the Ark of the Covenant, and even systematic theologies.
Rustin, I appreciate your take on idolatry, though I think our definitions aren’t quite identical. I just posted on my blog regarding a conversation I’ve been having with a catholic friend regarding this very issue. Please feel welcome to drop in and comment.
Regarding the who Jesus was…let me pose another very simple question….why would I need a savior? G-d has given me Torah, His covenant, and the opportunity to do teshuva. It is written, “Obedience is more desireable than sacrifice.”
Another question…well, it can wait until later. My wife has dinner ready. L’shalom…
Daniel,
Thank you greatly for both your comments and your questions. You are causing me to think more deliberately about my own views of God and Jesus in regards to the respect and reverence that they are due. I took a look at your blog and you have captured my attention. Please continue this dialogue with Rustin so that we can all sit in and learn more of the way you view the world and our relationship with its creator.
– Jason
That was kind of you to say. Not to say you’re right and I’m wrong, or you’re right and I’m wrong, but the Jewish mandate from G-d was/is to be the light of the world and to take the truth of G-d’s Torah to the gentiles. The Jewish nation are the light-bearers..to teach the world how to live and worship the One True G-d of Israel. I love to debate (constructively), and I am a bit opinionated, (as you probably noted from visiting my blog)…I have tomorrow off, so I look forward to a day of dialogue! It is written, “As iron sharpens iron, so a man sharpens his fellow.” Proverbs 27:17. Shalom.
I do not believe Jesus would play soccer, just can’t see it…
Daniel,
You ask, “Why would I need a savior?” For a theological treatment, I wouldn’t have the time to do it justice but could point you to others who would do better than I. (i.e. – I had to look up ‘teshuva’ – a display of my limitations on the issue.)
If you are asking on a more personal level, I would not tell you that ‘you’ need a savior as much as ‘we’ need a savior. Jews, Christians, Muslims, atheists… we can’t all sit around hoping for the demise of the Other. Jesus seems to me to provide the best way forward to new Creation – not a new religion, but God taking upon Godself the responsibility for evil by confronting, exposing and defeating evil in the cross.
Let me also echo Jason’s sentiment. I do appreciate the conversation and learning together.
Ok, I’ll move from speaking corporately regarding Jews everywhere to speaking personally. Why does Daniel need a ’savior’? Please don’t read me as being argumentative or contentious…I’m really trying to understand, and he is my understanding of things:
Jesus was born from a virgin, (Mary), and raised in Nazereth in a Torah-observant home. I assume he was brit-milah, (circumsized), and bar-mitzvah, (son of the commandments at age 13). He then drops off the map until age 30 when he begins to teach Torah…even stricter than previously known, I’ve found..i.e. the sermon on the mount is a teaching straight out of the Torah, but Jesus institutes stricter guidelines for holiness than was originally written or taught.
He performs numerous miracles, (do you know of any other writings from a third source that can substantiate those miracles? Clearly, if he raised someone from the dead, it would’ve been in somebody’s diary!), and then is convicted of blasphemy and crucified. It’s said that he raised from the dead, (again, is there an independent souce or historian that confirms this? Josephus? I’ll google it and see what I can find..)
If those facts are in order, then here’s my question:
Why do I need a savior? G-d gave me the Torah..(the rabbis teach that all Jewish souls were present that day at Sinai when G-d gave Moshe the Torah and then asked if we are willing to accept it. Every Jewish voice cried out, “Yes!” But then, HaShem said something very interesting through Samuel, (1 Samuel 15:22). He says, “Samuel said, “Does HaShem delight in elevation-offerings and feast offerings as in obedience to the voice of HaShem? Behold!-to obey is better than a choice offering, to be attentive than the fat of rams.”
I love G-d with everything in me. I do my very best to lead a holy life, I am kind to people around me, (I still have some issues I struggle with regarding muslims, but He’s helping me work through that…), and I do well in following the mitzvot, (commandments), that He gave me in the Torah. According to 1 Samuel 15:22, I am doing well, so to speak. Also, if I need Jesus to get to Heaven…does that mean that Avraham, Isaac, and Jacob…as well as everyone who lived prior to Jesus wento to hell? I anxiously await your reply….blessings to you and your family.
I like to think that God is above disrespect.
Someone uses collectible figurines to remind himself that he believes in a 15th century Italian representation of Jesus? That may be offensive to you and I, but it should be no more offensive than someone who doesn’t believe in Jesus at all. Neither are offensive unless you let yourself be offended.
I think with all the hate and mayhem in the world, God probably finds a lot more things to be disrespectful than some figurines. Let’s lighten up a bit, shall we?
On that note, here is something really hilarious: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpFdxLfXjqI
Igford, thank you for taking the time to share your opinion on the matter. Let me ask you a question, since you feel that G-d is “above disrespect…”
Do you consider the Sabbath holy? Do you observe that day exactly the way G-d instructed you to observe it? It is rather important to Him, you know. After all, He mentions it over 70 times in your Old Testament. You’re probably thinking, “Well, that’s the Old Testament, and we’re in the New Testament now.” Perhaps you are…so, if Jesus is G-d as you say, then the Sabbath would’ve been terrifically important to him as well, since He was the One who “…blessed the seventh day and sanctified it.” Sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, that is Shabbat, and that is what
G-d sanctified. That is what Jesus observed. Also, no work.
I think you’re right…there probably are some things that grieve the heart of G-d more than others. I would guess that at the top of His list would be His followers, (beit Jewish, Christian, etc…) that ‘customize’ their religion to fit into their comfort zone, disregarding the fact that G-d is the Creator of the universe, the Sustainer of all things living (including you and I), and therefore who are we to say this is important to G-d and this is not? He showed us what’s important to Him. Gave it to us in writing. Gave us prophets to remind us. The desire of my heart is that G-d fearing people would recognize that G-d is holy, and that He is no joke. He loves you passionately, but He’s not One to mold into an action figure riding a skateboard. I’ll lighten up if you’ll take Him a little more seriously. Deal?
Daniel,
Greetings my new friend! Like you I am also wanting to understand more about God. I love God with all that is in me. I, too, do my best to lead a holy life, I am kind to those around me, and I try to follow the teachings of God and Jesus the Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit which I believe indwells me. How am I, a gentile separated from God’s covenants, to be reconciled to God so that I may be worthy to be in his presence? How do you know when your best is good enough? How do I know when my best would be good enough?
Job said this of God:
“He is not a man like me that I might answer him, that we might confront eachother in court. If only there were someone to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both, someone to remove God’s rod from me, so that his terror would frighten me no more.” Job 9:32 – 34
This is where I feel like I am. I need someone who can lay a hand on me and lay a hand on God and be able to reconcile me to an omnipotent and loving creator. I am trusting Jesus as my savior to be able to do this duty of reconciliation for me. Without Jesus what hope is there for me? I, too, am not posting so as to argue but wish to understand and therefore be enlightened. May the God that we both serve bless you and your family as well. I hope for this to be the beginning of many conversations.
– Jason
I didn’t mean to say that idolatry and such are not important to Him. Or that we shouldn’t take Him seriously.
I just don’t think we need to be walking on eggshells to show Him the respect He is deserves. I don’t personally feel like God’s pride is His top priority. Maybe I am wrong, but I just don’t think that the creator of the universe is worried about his face being on skateboarding figurines when “He would never really do that in reality because He is better than that.” I don’t see God as the “I’m gonna sue you because you made me feel bad when you made of mold me in a Dallas Cowboy’s uniform” type of guy, even though we all know that Jesus wouldn’t be caught dead with a cowboys uniform on.
There are things I am sure that I do in my life that are a hundred times more disrespectful to God than a piece of plastic showing Jesus riding a bull (and having a great time I might add.) The thing is, when I do those things, I don’t think He sees at as me disrespecting Him. I think He probably sees it more as me disappointing Him, and that is much worse.
That’s what I meant when I said that I like to think that God is above disrespect.
Igford, I see where you’re coming from, and I agree with you. Jesus would never wear a cowboys uniform. Seahawks, maybe…but never dallas.
Shalom.
Daniel,
I knew there was a reason I liked you! I, myself, am a Kansas City Chiefs fan but I married into a Seahawks family. I have come to like them as a second choice. Go Hawks!!!
P.S. Any thoughts on my last post?
– Jason
I appreciate your last post, Jason. This is the start of Yom Kippur, so I won’t be on my computer until Sunday. I’ll give you a more detailed answer then. Until then…shalom!
Daniel,
I look forward to hearing from you. May I leave you with the greeting gmar chatima tova.
– Jason
Toda Raba, Jason! You’ve done a little homework!
Jason, here’s my response. You ask what must you do to be reconciled to G-d? Teshuva, (repentance).
When is your best good enough? It is established in the Torah AND in the New Testament that as a gentile you are simply required to observe the 7 Noahide Laws.
The seven laws listed by the Talmud are:
Prohibition of Idolatry: – There is only one God. You shall not make for yourself an idol.
Prohibition of Murder: – You shall not murder.
Prohibition of Theft: – You shall not steal.
Prohibition of Sexual Promiscuity: – You shall not commit adultery.
Prohibition of Blasphemy: – Revere G-d and do not blaspheme.
Prohibition of Cruelty to Animals: – Do not eat the flesh of an animal while it is still alive.
Requirement to have just Laws: – You shall set up an effective government to police the preceding six laws.
These were also established by the 1st century Christians in Acts 15, (I’ve done a little homework myself!). According to your faith, you are redeemed by Jesus and that provides your reconciliation between yourself and an omnipotant and loving Creator.
It sounds to me that you worship 3 G-ds. G-d the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, (Ruach HaKodesh).
For us, it is unthinkable. Deut. 6:4 says, “Sh’ma Yisrael, Adonai eloheinu Adonai echad.” “Hear o Israel, the L-rd our G-d is One G-d.” Can you explain to me how 3 are really one? That’s the questio I pose to you, my friend. Talk to you soon. L’Shalom, Daniel
PS: Are you still out there, Rustin?
I would offer that I do not worship 3 gods but rather a single God that portrays himself to us with 3 facets.
“Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness, and let them rule over the the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and over all the creatures that move along the ground.” Genesis 1:26
H2O has the forms of water, ice, and steam but never ceases to be H2O. This is how I see the 3 parts of God.
– Jason
Jason, explain to me how G-d can have a Son? That defies my understanding…I understand 2 of the three. I understand G-d and His Ruach HaKodesh…but a Son?
Where do you and your family live? I’m native to your area…I was born and raised in Boone, Iowa, and my extended family are in Branson, MO. I used to go to Chief’s games as a kid.
Hi all – I’m back. Sorry for the absence – I wish I had more time for this conversation but I do have other (less virtual) conversations that require my time also.
Daniel,
A couple clarifications:
- I know people say Jesus taught a stricter version of the Law, but I don’t see it that way. I see Jesus transcending the Law by calling his students to a higher vision of Kingdom life.
- The whole Trinity knock is a bit of cheap shot really – Christians believe in one God – just as Jesus does. Jesus affirms the Sh’ma in Mark 12:29. Even you make allowances for God as Father and God as Spirit, so it’s not that much of a stretch to get to God as Son – not as a literal-in-every-way Father/Son thing – but as a true metaphor of the relationship.
What I understand you saying is that you deny that the Gospels are accurate – this is why I was asking how you reconcile Jesus being a ‘kosher Rabbi’ – You do so by taking the position that Jesus’ followers exaggerated his claims about being God, his miracles, and the resurrection. That makes more sense. If the Gospels are accurate, then Jesus has to be something much greater or much worse.
Still you are a supernaturalist – the whole thing about ‘all souls being present at Sinai’ – I don’t have problem with that teaching, but you’ve got to admit that is as crazy an idea as resurrection or walking on water.
Help me understand – you keep framing our disagreement as if you expect me to argue that you need a savior – which I haven’t done. I don’t know if you need a savior or not. The Christian view though takes the stance that obedience to the Law was not enough – that there is an enmity between God and humanity that makes obedience a continual failing proposition.
To your question about Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob – a Christian view would certainly have them participating in Heaven – but because of their faith in God and his saving work (even if they didn’t know all it would entail) – not because of the law, but because of faith. This is a bit complicated, but Galatians 3 gives a snapshot of what Christians teach about the inadequacy of the Law for justification.
That’s brutality abbreviated – but I hope it makes sense. Help me understand this:
Where does the whole ‘Messiah’ thing fit into your model? For example, what do you do with scripture like Isaiah 53?
Rustin, thank you for your smashmouth response.
I can appreciate a “no frills” approach occasionally!
I have an extremely difficult time wrapping my head around G-d’s ‘Son’. I don’t know what it is. It’s a more difficult stretch than you might think. It’s like saying to someone, “Look, you stole Jolly Ranchers from 7-11 as a kid…robbing this bank isn’t much of a stretch.”
I’ll expound more tomorrow. As for Isaiah 53….I’ll read it tonight and get back to you. Until then, shalom…
It is much easier for me to see Y’shua as a kosher rabbi…one who taught Torah, (I don’t have time tonight, but I’ll site examples of where he gave his talmidim a more strict definition of several mitzvot, (commandments).
Wouldn’t it suffice for me to have the same faith in G-d and His saving work as Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob did?
As for Messiah? I pray fervently that Messiah comes soon and redeems the world, rebuilds the Temple, and purges the world of sin, sickness, war, etc….
Forgive me, but I’m exhausted. I work at a dealership and put in some long hours.
Awesome discussion. Thanks for the civility and respect being modeled here! It’s good to see God’s people having healthy conversation.
Here are a few examples of Y’shua teaching Torah, and setting a stricter standard:
Matthew 5:27…Torah teaches that adultery is commited in action. He teaches that we are guilty when we entertain thoughts of lust.
Matthew 5:31…Torah teaches that when you make an oath to G-d, you must make good on it because HaShem will hold you accountable. Similarly if you swear an oath on the Torah, by Heaven, etc…He teaches that we’re not permitted to make an oath at all by the name of G-d or on the Torah.
Matthew 5:38…Torah teaches that we are justified in avenging ourselves when we’ve been wronged, whether financially or physically. Y’shua teaches that we are not permitted to do so, but rather we are to take a passive approach.
Matthew 5:43…Torah teaches that we are to love our neighbor, (also a Christian teaching), but the Torah also says that it’s permissible to hate our enemies. Y’shua again makes a stricter standard by saying that we have to love everybody and pray for those who treat us poorly.
I do find it intriguiging that the Christian Jesus was all about the Torah. I like Matthew 5:17-20. He didn’t come to abolish the Torah, but fulfill it…interesting.
I have a very difficult time reading your new testament, because I dont recognize the validity or authority of it as scripture. For me, EVERYTHING must be filtered through the Torah. That is the foundation of ALL scripture. It is the only part of the Bible that was recorded directly from the mouth of G-d to Moses, then to us. It is the foundation upon which everything else is built. If something Isaiah says doesn’t line up with Torah, it must be thrown out. If you consider the New Testament to be scripture, it must ALL line up and agree with Torah, or it must be thrown out.
I’m thanking G-d (Baruch HaShem!) that I have tomorrow off…I look forward to the next response in this thread! Shalom…
Daniel, greetings friend! As you have stated that all must be filtered through the Torah would you let me know what all the Torah entails. Is the Torah in its entirety contained in our Old Testament or is it completely different from the first five books of the Old Testament? Sorry for my obvious admission of ignorance on this subject.
Daniel,
I’m enjoying the dialogue.
I think we’ve established civility as our framework, so ’smashmouth’ responses are fair game now.
Thanks for the examples of Jesus teaching the Torah. Like I said, I think a lot of Christian teachers would agree that Jesus’ take on the Law is ’stricter’. On the other hand, I see him helping his hearers to wrestle with the intent of the law. He shows that mere obedience to the letter of the Law is not the point; rather, he is calling people to a higher vision of life as people bearing God’s image – both in his teaching and his example.
For example, the Law says don’t commit adultery – you could not commit adultery and still be an untransformed person in the area of sexuality. You could not murder someone, and yet be hateful and mean and still cause a lot misery for others and yourself. Jesus seems to think the Law was given to point people toward wholeness and integrity (a blessed life), but instead had (in his day) become a cheap kind of moralism or legalism. In that sense, Jesus is not ’stricter’ but is making this point. In light of that, Jesus coming to ‘fulfill’ the Law takes on an interesting meaning. (I’d have to think about that more).
I understand your difficulty with the New Testament – believe me, I teach this stuff and it is difficult for me! At the same time, I do think the likelihood of its basic accuracy is high – so part of my task is to explore the places where it’s teaching is dissonant with my life and wrestle with it and help others wrestle with it.
Question: I echo Jason’s question about the Torah – but in addition, whose take on the Torah is authoritative to you? Is their a particular tradition, or teacher (for example) whose interpretation of the Law you subscribe to? Or who makes the most sense out of it for you?
I truly appreciate your answers…and your questions. As for what the Torah is…in this thread, I have only referred to the Written Torah, which is the first 5 books. We also have the Oral Torah, commonly known as the Talmud. This started as the directions G-d gave to Moses on Mt Sinai during the 40 days he was up there with G-d. He received explanations about many things the Torah doesn’t expound on, such as HOW to build the Mishkan, (the Tabernacle), and exactly how to ritually sacrifice an animal so that it conforms to laws of kashrut that He gave us in Leviticus, etc…Moses wasn’t expected to just ‘know’ what the priest’s garments were to look like, so we believe the Talmud to have the same authority as the written Torah. It has evolved over the centuries when it was finally commited to writing in about the 5th century. Prior to that it was completely memorized and passed from rabbi to student. I understand that many Christians don’t recognize the authority of the Talmud, so I have left it out.
To answer Rustin’s question about whose ‘take’ on the Torah I subscribe to…I enjoy many of the leading commentaries by Rashi, Rambam (Maimonides), R’Akiva, etc…but I also read and interpret scripture on my own. I am fluent in Hebrew, so I come to my own conclusions, and then read the commentaries to see if my thoughts line up with others that share my values.
I really appreciate what you said about the goal Jesus had in mind when teaching the Torah…about using it to point others to a more fulfilling and Torah-observent life…not for the sake of legalism, but to embrace Ruach haTorah, the Spirit of the Torah. I will post this, and then I have a question for Rustin about the Messiahship of Jesus…
Jesus’ Genealogy
Most Christians are not learned in Jewish law, and are thus unaware of the triune (pardon the expression) nature of the genealogical problem associated with claiming Jesus as the Messiah. However, since the Christian claim is that Jesus is the JEWISH Messiah, then we must put the case under JEWISH scrutiny, and see if it fits under JEWISH law. The following is an examination of the genealogy of Jesus…
Messiah is an anglicized version of the Hebrew word “Moshiach,” which means “anointed.” We call the future king the Messiah because all kings are anointed.
One of the simplest requirements for being the Messiah is the lineage. In the Jewish scriptures we see prophecies of a king from David’s line sitting on the throne of Israel once more:
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the LORD their G-d, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (KJV)
David had been given an oath from the Almighty that the throne of Israel would always belong to his line, which we find in the Jewish Bible repeatedly:
Jeremiah 33:17 For thus said HASHEM: There shall not be cut off from David a man who sits on the throne of the House of Israel. [18] And for the Kohanim, the Levites, there will never be cut off a man from before Me who offers elevation-offerings and burns meal-offerings and performs feast-offerings all the days. [19] The word of HASHEM came to Jeremiah, saying: [20] Thus said HASHEM: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night would not come in their proper times, [21] so too could My covenant be annulled with David, My servant, so that he would not have a descendant reigning on his throne, or [My covenant] with the Levites and the Kohanim, My attendants. (Artscroll)
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (KJV)
So, from here we see that G-d took an oath that the throne would always belong to David and his descendants. However, the oath was supplemented by another pledge:
1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)
So we see, any man who would sit on the throne must not only be a descendant of King David, but specifically a descendant of David’s son, Solomon. This requirement was made even more stringent in the days prior to the Babylonian exile. Jeconiah, King of Judah, was a wicked king, and his actions pushed G-d too far. G-d punished Jeconiah, also known as Jehoiachin or Coniah:
Jeremiah 22:24 [As] I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence; [25] And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand [of them] whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans. [26] And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die. [27] But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return. [28] [Is] this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? Wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? [29] O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD. [30] Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. (KJV)
This devastating curse effectively removes all descendants of Jeconiah from the royal line. So from the verses listed above we see that anyone who would sit as king must be descended from King Solomon but not descended from King Jeconiah. We see that this curse is binding, because after Jeconiah was deposed, instead of the throne being handed to his son, it passed to Zedekiah, his uncle. No descendant of Jeconiah ever held the throne, or ever can hold the throne. His grandson, Zerubbabel, held power granted by G-d, but was never king.
The New Testament makes the messianic claim for Jesus, and as such, the New Testament gives a detailed genealogy in the first chapter of the very first book, the Gospel of Matthew:
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias; [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: (KJV)
Matthew defeated his own purpose by including Jeconiah (spelled Jechonias by the KJV) in his listing. Further complicating this matter is the virgin birth, which is claimed by Matthew 1:18-23. Because the virgin birth is substantiated by a misused excerpt of Isaiah, there is no reason to believe that it was actually prophesied, and even less to believe it to be true. Furthermore, it defeats the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. In Jewish law, genealogy is traced specifically through the father, not the mother.
Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of [their] names, every male by their polls; (KJV)
Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first [day] of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. (KJV)
With genealogies in the Bible, we see person A, son of person B, son of person C, etc. This is because Jewish descent is traced through our fathers. If a Levitical priest married a woman from the tribe of Judah, their children would be of the tribe of Levi.
Not having a human father prevents anyone from claiming the throne. Can you help me with this one?
Who gives authority to the throne if not God Almighty himself? If Jesus is indeed the Messiah, would not the idea that his lineage came from God himself be a strong enough claim to the throne of Israel? My admittedly limited knowledge of the Jewish idea of Messiah is that of a ruler to sit on the throne of Israel and to put the enemies of Israel beneath him. Jesus defeated both sin and death by holding to the law perfectly and giving himself to death on the cross only to be raised again on the third day. The punishment of the law is death. The true enemy of Israel is not Iran, or Muslims but death itself. There is nothing to fear from these foes except for death. They can never make Jews to be not Jews and can never stop Israel from being the chosen land of the chosen people. I pray for the peace of Israel but I never fear for their safety or existence. If Jesus truly defeated death, as I believe, would that not make him the most powerful reigning king that Israel could hope for?
To answer a few questions back, my wife and I live in Belton, Missouri which is just south of Kansas City. She is from LaGrande, Oregon. Her mother currently lives in Portland, her father in Snohomish, and her brother in Everett. We went to the Chiefs/Seahawks game last year. I love Arrowhead for its electric atmosphere. It’s too bad they tore down the King Dome out there. My wife saw the Sonics play at the King Dome when she was growing up but never got to see a Seahawks game there. If you are ever out to Missouri again you are welcome at our camp fire anytime!!!
Daniel, could you recommend a written Talmud that I might be able to find and purchase. I did a search for some and came up with many options but don’t really know which books offer a correct rendering of Talmud. What I really need is sort of a Talmud For Dummies type book.
Jason, it is my understanding that to be “King Of The Jews,” you must come from the correct lineage.
You say, “If Jesus is indeed the Messiah, would not the idea that his lineage came from God himself be a strong enough claim to the throne of Israel?.” My position is that I am trying to see Jesus as you do, but I have a few things to reconcile first. The first is that his lineage doesn’t place him in line for kingship. Also, did he really defeat death? To do so would mean that he has the power of divinity, or is either G-d or equal to
G-d, right? I am having a hard time reconciling this, also. Is Jesus Really G-d?
“To whom then will you liken G-d, or what likeness compare with him?” Isaiah 40:18 (NRS)
Christian theology holds that Jesus was more than just the Messiah. They hold that Jesus is G-d Himself. First, let’s explore a couple of New Testament verses which make it perfectly clear that Jesus was subordinate to G-d, and not equal to Him:
Mark 13:32 “But of that day and [that] hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. “(KJV)
There are things that G-d keeps from Himself? Is such a thing even possible? It’s obvious that these verses contradict Jesus being equal and of the same substance as G-d Almighty. Christians say he’s G-d, and then they say he’s the Son of G-d. Which one is he? Is he G-d or is he the Messiah? He can’t be both, and closer examination will show he is neither.
Ezekiel 37:23 “Neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions: but I will save them out of all their dwelling places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them: so shall they be my people, and I will be their G-d. [24] And David My servant [shall be] king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them. “(KJV)
Christians and Jews agree that chapter 37 of Ezekiel is messianic. The object of verse 24 of Ezekiel 37 is the Messiah, and it is clear that the Messiah is G-d’s servant, and not G-d Himself.
Of all chapters in the Bible, chapter 13 of Deuteronomy has always pulled at me. Let us examine this chapter in greater detail.
Deuteronomy 13:1 “The entire word that I command you, that shall you observe to do; you shall not add to it and you shall not subtract from it. [2] If there should stand up in your midst a prophet or a dreamer of a dream, and he will produce to you a sign or a wonder, [3] and the sign or the wonder comes about, of which he spoke to you, saying “Let us follow gods of others that you did not know and we shall worship them!” [4] do not hearken to the words of that prophet or to that dreamer of a dream, for HASHEM, your G-d, is testing you to know whether you love HASHEM, your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul. [5] HASHEM, your G-d, shall you follow and Him shall you fear; His commandments shall you observe and to His voice shall you hearken; Him shall you serve and to Him shall you cleave. [6] And that prophet and that dreamer of a dream shall be put to death, for he had spoken perversion against HASHEM, your G-d Who takes you out of the land of Egypt, and Who redeems you from the house of slavery to make you stray from the path on which HASHEM, you G-d, has commanded you to go; and you shall destroy the evil from your midst.”(Artscroll)
So, what are the lessons gleaned here? First off, we are to never alter the precepts of the Torah, we are never to add to it nor subtract from it. Secondly, we are not to follow gods that we did not know. Did my ancestors from 2,500 years ago or earlier know Jesus as G-d? Did they pray to Jesus as Lord and Messiah? Of course, not. Jesus had not been born yet. The point is that we did not know a G-d in the form of man and since it was something we did not know, as verses 3 and 4 show, we are not to listen to these teachings. Chapter 13 of Deuteronomy is not the only chapter of the Torah that deals with false prophecy. Moses gave another warning in this regard:
Deuteronomy 18:15 “A prophet from your midst, from your brethren, like me, shall HASHEM, your G-d, establish for you to him shall you hearken. [16] According to all that you asked of HASHEM, your G-d, in Horeb on the day of the congregation, saying, “I can no longer hear the voice of HASHEM, my G-d, and this great fire I can no longer see, so that I shall not die.” [17] Then HASHEM said to me: They have done well in what they have said. [18] I will establish a prophet for them from among their brethren, like you, and I will place My words in his mouth; He shall speak to them everything that I will command him. [19] And it shall be that the man who will not hearken to My words that he shall speak in My name, I will exact from him, [20] But the prophet who willfully shall speak a word in My name, that which I have not commanded him to speak, or who shall speak in the name of the gods of others that prophet shall die. [21] When you say in your heart, “How can we know the word that HASHEM has not spoken?” [22] If the prophet will speak in the Name of HASHEM and that thing will not occur and not come about that is the word that HASHEM has not spoken; with willfulness has the prophet spoken it, you should not fear him.”(Artscroll)
Didn’t Apostles such as Paul believe and preach that the return of Jesus would occur within their lifetimes? It didn’t happen. What can we learn from this? That these teachings were foreign to the core of Judaism, that it was not the word of the Lord and that we should neither fear nor trust those who spoke it. To further magnify this point, let us look at the beginning of the Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2 “I [am] the LORD thy G-d, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. [3] Thou shalt have no other gods before me. “(KJV)
Contemplate the importance of this commandment for a moment. “No other gods before Him.” Christians will contend that Jesus IS G-d, claiming they don’t have any other gods before Him, but as noted in the verses from the New Testament quoted above, it is plain to see that not only was Jesus separate from G-d, but he was NOT G-d. What do we have if we pray to Jesus? We have polytheism.
From Deuteronomy 34:10-12, we learn that Moses was the greatest prophet of all time, whom G-d knew “face to face.” He taught us everything there is to know about the nature of G-d.
Numbers 23:19 “G-d [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?”(KJV)
Psalms 146:3 “Put not your trust in princes, [nor] in the son of man, in whom [there is] no help.” (KJV)
From this, we learn that G-d is NOT a man. When G-d appeared before Moses prior to the delivering of the Ten Commandments, G-d made His presence known amidst a cloud of smoke. If He were a man, why didn’t the Holy One, Blessed be He, take on physical form and appear as a man? The answer is amazingly simple: G-d is infinite, and incorporeal. To take on physical form would limit the limitless, and He would not take on physical form because that might have led the Israelites to idolatry.
On a slightly different note, didn’t Jesus refer to himself quite often as the Son of Man? Aren’t we to learn from Psalm 146 that there is no help to be had from the Son of Man? There’s a reason why Jesus called himself this. Jesus was a Jew, and as such, there are things that Christians who deify him will miss. It is quite likely that Jesus was trying to prevent his followers from deifying him.
What reason is there to think that Jesus is G-d? What reason is there to think that ANY man is G-d? So a man shows you signs and wonders, and some people claim he rose from the dead. How do you test a man to know that he’s G-d? What could Jesus possibly have done to prove He was G-d, especially given the text of the New Testament, which makes it plainly clear that he was subordinate to G-d? That which is subordinate to G-d must be SEPARATE from G-d.
Matthew 19:16 “And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? [17] And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. “(KJV)
Mark 10:17 “And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life? [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], G-d. “(KJV)
These verses present a back-breaking problem to a Christian who believes in Jesus as G-d, because Jesus states emphatically that he wasn’t. The translators of NIV were quick to recognize the problem, and adjust their text accordingly:
Matthew 19:16 “Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?” [17] “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments.” (NIV)
It’s very slick, it’s very sneaky. And it’s also very sloppy. See the same scene below from Mark in NIV:
Mark 10:17 “As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. “Good teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?” [18] “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good–except G-d alone.” (NIV)
NIV’s rendering of this passage from Mark’s Gospel makes the point even more clearly than King James did.
Jesus makes it clear that he is the son of G-d, which for no reason should be taken literally. All Jews can be considered sons of G-d. See Hosea 11:1. Even others can be under that terrific label.
Matthew 5:9 “Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of G-d.”
Christians will object, saying that of course this isn’t to be taken literally. Well, neither is it to be taken literally with Jesus! Gentiles come to the New Testament with a clean slate, without a true understanding of what came before. Well, the Jews can view the New Testament from a different perspective, the proper perspective.
Jesus wasn’t G-d. The worship of Jesus is precisely what G-d warned us against.
The plain fact is that there is not a single verse in the entire New Testament that makes the claim that Jesus is G-d. If such verses did indeed exist, then Christianity wouldn’t be splintered into so many hundreds of sects, and the councils of Nicea and Constantinople would not have taken place to determine Jesus’ divinity.
Hebrews 5:8 “Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered,” (KJV)
G-d Almighty needed to learn obedience? Isn’t G-d all knowing? Does He not know everything?
John 14:28 “Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come [again] unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.” (KJV)
Jesus clearly states that he is less than G-d. That which is less than G-d cannot be the same as G-d.
Luke 2:52 “And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with G-d and man.”(KJV)
Would G-d grow in wisdom and stature? Would G-d grow in His own favor? It is noteworthy that this verse from Luke’s Gospel bears a remarkable resemblance to another Biblical verse:
1 Samuel 2:26 “And the child Samuel grew on, and was in favour both with the LORD, and also with men.”(KJV)
The fact remains. Nowhere even in the New Testament is it taught that Jesus is part of a triune godhead. Nowhere does he make the claim that he was G-d. Nowhere in the New Testament is there the reason to believe that he is G-d. I’ve really been studying and doing my homework…I’ve always been afraid to pick up the Christian Bible, but I forced myself to do it over the last couple of weeks…I look forward to hearing from you. Help me to reconcile these concerns.
This is a fantastic book…I own it personally.
http://www.amazon.com/Complete-Idiots-Guide-Talmud/dp/1592572022/ref=sr_1_1/002-6624079-9316000?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1190849413&sr=8-1
Thank you for such a detailed response. I need to wrap my mind around all of this for a little while and I’ll get back with you. Also, thanks for the book recommendation. As you have been afraid to pick up the christian Bible I have always read the Torah as a background to the New Testament, not thinking any less of it but rather seeing it as setting the stage for the future, and I have never opened the Talmud. I look forward to studying and learning alongside of you my friend.
Thanks, Jason. I love to learn, also. It was nice to see KC slip past Minnesota this weekend.
Rustin,
I guess Jason and I will continue our discussion via email. I would really like to continue with you here, if that’s ok. L’Shalom,
Daniel
Are you still open to visiting with me, Rustin?
Daniel,
Yes – let’s continue. Give me a couple more days and I’ll return to comment.
Alright…I look forward to hearing you again. Shalom…
Daniel,
Your last email was long and dense, so I might reply in stages…and with long and dense posts of my own.
Let’s begin with the beginning:
You say “In Jewish law, genealogy is traced specifically through the father, not the mother.” The clever quip here would be to point out that Jesus’ Father is God, so the genealogies aren’t there to necessarily make the sole point that Jesus is entitled to be King – although I’ve not researched your argument yet. You might have a look at the Luke 3 genealogy though – it’s a bit different.
Quickly, you make two claims.
1. Jesus didn’t claim to be God.
2. The New Testament makes no claim that Jesus is God.
Here are some places you’d have to wrestle with to arrive at those conclusions:
In response to questioning during his trial as to whether or not Jesus claimed to be ‘the Christ, the Son of God’:
Mark 14:60-62; Matthew 26: 63-65; Luke 22:67-70
In Mark 2, Jesus claims authority to forgive sins, something only God can do.
John 10 is pretty straight forward about who Jesus thought he was. It includes the claim, “I and the Father are one.”
John 8:56-58 got Jesus in a heap of trouble. Here he said, “before Abraham was born, I am.” (Invoking the name of God as his own.) He does this in a couple other places, one of which is in the garden the night he is arrested, but the Aramaic (?) to Greek to English gets a little fuzzy.
John 1 rewrites the Creation narrative around the creative work of ‘the Word’ through whom everything came into being. The ‘Word’ is Jesus according to John.
John 10:33 indicates Jesus was to be stoned for claiming to be God.
(Daniel 7:13-14 is another interesting Messianic statement)
John 6:46 (?) – “No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father.”
Luke 4 is a claim of Jesus’ idea that he is Messiah, and certainly his display of dominion over the demonic and his behavior in the Temple (like he owned the place) is interesting as well.
I could go on, but clearly Jesus, through his baptism, 40 days in the wilderness, etc.. was identifying himself with Israel as a representative of Israel (which in turn is representative of humanity). The claim is that Jesus comes to earth, as God, sent by God, to take responsibility upon himself for the enmity between Creation and Creator.
Check out Philippians 2:
5Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
That’s a nice segue into New Testament claims of Jesus being God. I’ll save that for next time.
can I just say how much I am thoroughly enjoying following this thread? it is respectful, insightful and thought-provoking on all counts. I am in a study that is heavy old testament right now so it’s all very fascinating stuff.
Daniel, I got my The Complete Idiots Guide to The Talmud in the mail today. I’m sure I’ll have more questions soon.
Rustin, thank you for your thorough response…I will study out your points and respond to them. Here are my thoughts regarding the genealogy issue:
Most Christians are not learned in Jewish law, and are thus unaware of the triune nature of the genealogical problem associated with claiming Jesus as the Messiah. However, since the Christian claim is that Jesus is the JEWISH Messiah, then we must put the case under JEWISH scrutiny, and see if it fits under JEWISH law. The following is an examination of the genealogy of the man whom you call Lord and Savior.
Messiah is an anglicized version of the Hebrew word “Moshiach,” which means “anointed.” We call the future king the Messiah because all kings are anointed.
One of the simplest requirements for being the Messiah is the lineage. In the Jewish scriptures we see prophecies of a king from David’s line sitting on the throne of Israel once more:
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day [is] great, so that none [is] like it: it [is] even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it. [8] For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, [that] I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: [9] But they shall serve the LORD their G-d, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them. (KJV)
David had been given an oath from the Almighty that the throne of Israel would always belong to his line, which we find in the Jewish Bible repeatedly:
Jeremiah 33:17 For thus said HASHEM: There shall not be cut off from David a man who sits on the throne of the House of Israel. [18] And for the Kohanim, the Levites, there will never be cut off a man from before Me who offers elevation-offerings and burns meal-offerings and performs feast-offerings all the days. [19] The word of HASHEM came to Jeremiah, saying: [20] Thus said HASHEM: If you could annul My covenant with the day and My covenant with the night, so that day and night would not come in their proper times, [21] so too could My covenant be annulled with David, My servant, so that he would not have a descendant reigning on his throne, or [My covenant] with the Levites and the Kohanim, My attendants. (Artscroll)
Psalms 89:34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. [35] Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. [36] His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me. [37] It shall be established for ever as the moon, and [as] a faithful witness in heaven. Selah. (KJV)
So, from here we see that G-d took an oath that the throne would always belong to David and his descendants. However, the oath was supplemented by another pledge:
1 Chronicles 22:9 Behold, a son shall be born to thee, who shall be a man of rest; and I will give him rest from all his enemies round about: for his name shall be Solomon, and I will give peace and quietness unto Israel in his days. [10] He shall build a house for my name; and he shall be My son, and I [will be] his Father; and I will establish the throne of his kingdom over Israel for ever. (KJV)
So we see, any man who would sit on the throne must not only be a descendant of King David, but specifically a descendant of David’s son, Solomon. This requirement was made even more stringent in the days prior to the Babylonian exile. Jeconiah, King of Judah, was a wicked king, and his actions pushed G-d too far. G-d punished Jeconiah, also known as Jehoiachin or Coniah:
Jeremiah 22:24 [As] I live, saith the LORD, though Coniah the son of Jehoiakim king of Judah were the signet upon my right hand, yet would I pluck thee thence; [25] And I will give thee into the hand of them that seek thy life, and into the hand [of them] whose face thou fearest, even into the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, and into the hand of the Chaldeans. [26] And I will cast thee out, and thy mother that bare thee, into another country, where ye were not born; and there shall ye die. [27] But to the land whereunto they desire to return, thither shall they not return. [28] [Is] this man Coniah a despised broken idol? [is he] a vessel wherein [is] no pleasure? Wherefore are they cast out, he and his seed, and are cast into a land which they know not? [29] O earth, earth, earth, hear the word of the LORD. [30] Thus saith the LORD, Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days: for no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah. (KJV)
This devastating curse effectively removes all descendants of Jeconiah from the royal line. So from the verses listed above we see that anyone who would sit as king must be descended from King Solomon but not descended from King Jeconiah. We see that this curse is binding, because after Jeconiah was deposed, instead of the throne being handed to his son, it passed to Zedekiah, his uncle. No descendant of Jeconiah ever held the throne, or ever can hold the throne. His grandson, Zerubbabel, held power granted by G-d, but was never king.
The New Testament makes the messianic claim for Jesus, and as such, the New Testament gives a detailed genealogy in the first chapter of the very first book, the Gospel of Matthew:
Matthew 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham. [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren; [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram; [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon; [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse; [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her [that had been the wife] of Urias; [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa; [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias; [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias; [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias; [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon: (KJV)
Matthew defeated his own purpose by including Jeconiah (spelled Jechonias by the KJV) in his listing. Further complicating this matter is the virgin birth, which is claimed by Matthew 1:18-23. Because the virgin birth is substantiated by a misused excerpt of Isaiah (see related essay) there is no reason to believe that it was actually prophesied, and even less to believe it to be true. Furthermore, it defeats the claim that Jesus is the Messiah. In Jewish law, genealogy is traced specifically through the father, not the mother.
Numbers 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, after their families, by the house of their fathers, with the number of [their] names, every male by their polls; (KJV)
Numbers 1:18 And they assembled all the congregation together on the first [day] of the second month, and they declared their pedigrees after their families, by the house of their fathers, according to the number of the names, from twenty years old and upward, by their polls. (KJV)
With genealogies in the Bible, we see person A, son of person B, son of person C, etc. This is because Jewish descent is traced through our fathers. If a Levitical priest married a woman from the tribe of Judah, their children would be of the tribe of Levi.
Not having a human father prevents anyone from claiming the throne.
I’ve done a bit of research online regarding Christian rebuttals to this issus, and here is my response to what I assume your position to be…
1) The virgin birth prevents Joseph from passing on his cursed lineage to Jesus, thereby allowing Jesus to sit on the throne. This is the answer proposed by apologists like Josh McDowell. Because the virgin birth undermines the notion of Jesus being the Messiah, one is forced to consider this as if Joseph passed on the genealogy through rights of adoption, even though such rights do not exist.
2) The claim is made that the curse was not to be taken literally. The beginning of Jeremiah 22:30 reads “Write ye this man childless, a man [that] shall not prosper in his days…” From this they point to the fact that Jeconiah did know prosperity, and that he did indeed have children, so that means G-d didn’t mean the curse to be as devastating as it actually is. This is pointing away from the end of verse 30. “For no man of his seed shall prosper, sitting upon the throne of David, and ruling any more in Judah.” This portion of the verse makes it clear what was meant. Jeconiah did indeed have children, but those children would be forbidden from sitting on the throne. “Write ye this man childless” is simply a metaphor here.
3) The claim is made that the curse was annulled by G-d. Christians refer to the following passage:
Haggai 2:23 In that day, saith the LORD of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the LORD, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the LORD of hosts. (KJV)
G-d used the same term with Zerubbabel, a descendant of Jeconiah, that He used with Jeconiah, a “signet ring.” Christians conclude from this that the curse was annulled. However, a closer examination will reveal that this is certainly not the case. The curse begins with an oath. “As I live, saith the LORD.” How does the Lord live? He lives eternally. G-d did indeed show favor to Zerubbabel, and might even have instated Zerubbabel as king, if not for the curse the Almighty placed on Jeconiah. The Almighty took oaths. Are we to believe that the Almighty would revoke His oaths? The problem with this is twofold.
a. If the virgin birth is true (which is less likely than I can adequately describe, given that a mistranslated prophecy was taken out of context to “prove” it) that would mean that G-d took the throne away from David’s house, which would mean G-d violated an oath.
b. The curse of Jeconiah taints Joseph’s line, so that if you theorize adoption (which is without scriptural backing or precedent) you trace Joseph back to Jeconiah, cursed by G-d under another of G-d’s oaths.
4) Another Christian proposed a solution to this problem along the lines of “Don’t you think G-d would have it in His heart to show mercy to Jeconiah’s line?” My answer is two-fold: a) NO, it was a curse, and we see that it was eternal by the fact that none of Jeconiah’s descendants sat on the throne. b) If you theorize that G-d showed mercy provide your evidence within the text. The needs of Christian theology predicate this solution, rather than the facts.
5) Christians believe they have found the answer to this problem with the following: In chapter three of the Gospel of Luke, we see a genealogy of Jesus which lacks Jeconiah in the listing. Strangely enough, this genealogy is attributed to Joseph as well. Apologists have asserted that this is the genealogy of Mary. They claim that it is through Mary’s line that Jesus is linked to David, and thus the virgin birth problem and the Jeconiah problem are solved, right?
Wrong. Let us explain why this is not a viable solution:
1) The genealogy in Luke’s Gospel specifically says Joseph, not Mary.
2) The genealogy of Mary is completely irrelevant, as lineage is through the father, not the mother.
3) Luke made a critical gaff in his genealogical listing. The listing doesn’t include King Solomon:
Luke 3:31 Which was [the son] of Melea, which was [the son] of Menan, which was [the son] of Mattatha, which was [the son] of Nathan, which was [the son] of David, (KJV)
Luke’s listing proclaims Jesus the descendant of Nathan, not Solomon, making Luke’s genealogy a disqualifying factor as well. (See 1 Chronicles 22 excerpt above) BOTH genealogies we find in the New Testament Jesus from being the Messiah.
1 Timothy 1:4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: [so do]. (KJV)
Why is this verse here, if not to get people to point away from the fairly obvious problems the gospels contain?
In Summation:
1) If the virgin birth is true (which is highly unlikely since it goes against the grain of supporting Jesus’ messianic claim) then Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
2) If you trace Jesus’ line through Joseph (by which you claim Jesus inherits the throne by adoption) in Matthew’s genealogy, then you run into the curse of Jeconiah, and Jesus cannot be the Messiah.
3) If you trace Jesus’ line through Luke’s genealogy (regardless of whether you attribute it to Joseph or Mary) Jesus cannot be the Messiah because it doesn’t include King Solomon; it includes his brother, Nathan, eliminating any legitimate claim to the throne.
Jesus’ genealogy, as we have it in the Christian Scriptures, does not allow him to be the Messiah. This point cannot be stressed strongly enough. No other “prophecies” one thinks Jesus fulfilled are relevant without this crucial brick in the wall.
Thank you for forcing me to study so hard! I look forward to hearing from you soon. In the meantime, I’ll read the NT verses you gave me and respond back. L’Shalom, Daniel
Once again, Daniel, all authority to any throne is given by God. If Jesus is the Son of God then he has been given the strongest claim possible. Does not Jesus have rights to that which he was involved in creating?
You’re assuming I believe in his deity. I don’t believe he is G-d…the proof is in part proven through his geaneology, my friend.
Therein lies the true problem. The real issue is not his geneology but rather his deity. If there were listed in the gospels a perfect geneology it would not make him in any way deity. However, if he truly is deity then the only geneology that matters is his Father. Jesus claimed deity numerous times so either he is a madman or he is who he said. This is where faith comes in. The Torah can only be believed in by faith. Without faith there is not scientific proof to prove without the shadow of a doubt that those events truly happened as they were recorded. This is the same principal that is at work in the New Testament. Jesus deity requires faith and if you have that faith then Jesus words come alive and fill your life. To believe and act on that belief is faith. Faith does not require science although science does require faith. Peace, friend!
Your response sounds like, “I believe what I believe, so don’t bother me with the facts!” It’s a shaky position to take, to say the least. G-d is the One that established the rules….the rules for atonement, the rules for Shabbat, the rules concerning Mashiach. Part of the requirement of Mashiach is his lineage. Otherwise, I could claim to be Messiah. The fact of the matter is….Jesus doesn’t meet the criteria from the very beginning. Also, G-d never said Messiah would be G-d…for G-d is One, (see Deut.6:4). That would be like saying that G-d came from Heaven and went from existing outside of time and space, and becoming a man, and allowing himself to be tortured, beaten, and crucified. Can you seriously tell me that that makes any sense at all? That the great “I AM”, the G-d of all creation just showed-up one day? Unbelieveable. One more issue with this entire thing: Since everything must line up with the Torah since that’s the foundation of all scripture, G-d NEVER allowed human sacrifice under ANY circumstance. That’s why Abraham was stopped from sacrificing Isaac. G-d never prepared us for human sacrifice for atonement. Layla tov.
What I am trying to get at is that there must be a choice made over whether Jesus is deity. Obviously Jesus did not come and sit on an earthly throne and rule over Israel in peace, as of yet. The idea of God coming from heaven and becoming a man and facing torture and death on a cross is amazing. However, that’s the beauty of the mystery that is Jesus. God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. The law is beyond my ability to follow perfectly but I trust in Jesus to have done it for me. Jesus rescued me by doing what I could never do and then offered himself to death so as to conquer that as well.
I understand what you’re saying, Jason. I just can’t agree with it. It has to pass through the filter of the Torah, and it doesn’t come close. Nowhere in the Torah does G-d allow us to perform human sacrifice…not to mention the sacrifice of a god for atonement! OY!
I agree that there must be a place for faith, however, not blind faith at the exclusion of fact. “Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me.”
Acts 24:13 (KJV)
Using logical analysis, let us examine the primary proofs used for Christianity:
1) The Word of G-d — Jews and Christians both maintain that the Torah, Prophets, and Writings are of Divinely inspired origin. With the New Testament, we have a divergence. Does the New Testament offer proof of Divine inspiration? It does not in any substantial amount. Jesus did supposedly predict the destruction of the Second Temple, but the prophet Daniel did that some five hundred years prior to Jesus, so there’s really no proof there. Three hundred years after Jesus lived and died, the quality of different pieces of Christian religious literature came to a vote, and by majority vote Christian religious doctrine was hashed out, and certain books were deemed not the word of G-d, and certain books were decided to be the word of G-d. So, what we have here in essence is religious doctrine by means of democracy.
2) Fulfillment of prophecy — the Christian claim is that Jesus (Yeshu, as he is called in Jewish sources such as the Talmud) was the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy dating back five hundred years and more prior to his birth. There are several logical arguments against this contention.
a) The only proof of these fulfillments is contained within the New Testament itself. All outside mention of Jesus (such as passages supposedly written by Flavius Josephus) is not considered reliable. As long as disagreements exist in outside texts, they cannot be used as proof. Thus, we must limit ourselves to the veracity of the New Testament itself. In an age where Jewish literacy and literature was not a limited activity, we find no contemporaneous writings about this man Jesus. While arguments from silence aren’t quite as cogent, one must wonder why a figure allegedly recognized as the Messiah and then put to death by those same people who had apparently accepted him wouldn’t receive mention in contemporary writings.
b) Most quotes aren’t even the fulfillments of Messianic prophecy. For the sake of brevity we shall use the following example:
Matthew 2:15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called My son. (KJV)
Compare to:
Hosea 11:1 When Israel [was] a child, then I loved him, and called My son out of Egypt. (KJV)
Taking a verse that’s not even about the Messiah and saying it’s the fulfillment of Messianic prophecy isn’t proof that the New Testament is true. It’s proof that the New Testament is dishonest. To those that say that one verse quote doesn’t mean anything, they should be reminded that the New Testament is supposedly the revealed word of G-d. It should not have any such fallacies staring you so blatantly in the face. Other quotes are of such small events involving taking Jewish Bible verses out of context in such a manner that they are on par with trying to prove that Mohammed was illiterate prior to his supposed revelation.
3) The “Revelation” of Paul — In the Acts of the Apostles, we are told of the supposed revelation experienced by Paul, going from being a persecutor of Jews who chose to ignore the Sanhedrin ruling, to being the biggest advocate of the belief system that became Christianity. Is this reason to believe him? If it is, we must be fair and follow everyone whose story rings similar. With this logic, all Christians should jump onto the Joseph Smith train and become Mormons. After all, Smith had a “revelation” that nobody else experienced, and suddenly we’re left with the fastest growing religion in the United States of America.
4) Other personal revelations — So, if we are to follow Christianity’s story, we should believe there is no line between kosher and unkosher food because the apostle Peter had a dream that told him so. The Pharisees asked Jesus for a sign, Jesus gave them a sign (at least, he did in the Gospel of Matthew. In Mark he told them there would be no sign), which would be his resurrection after being dead for three days. Once he is supposedly resurrected, he doesn’t bother to appear to the Pharisees, who specifically asked him for the sign. Instead, Jesus’ followers come to the Pharisees, claiming that the sign had transpired. Not much of a sign, is it? Jesus (assuming the resurrection took place) had the perfect opportunity to come back and prove that he was telling the truth. Numerous Christians claim to have had a personal revelation that Jesus spoke to them. Does this do us any good? If it’s not something that you can see or verify, it is completely useless.
So, when we examine these proofs with even a superficial eye, we see that they do not hold water. Even more so if we were to examine them under greater scrutiny.
I love to dig in and research the truth, but I need something a little than blind faith to hang my hat on, my friend. L’Shalom, Daniel
Have I lost everyone? Rustin? Jason? Well anyway…have a Shabbat Shalom.
Hey there, friend. Your opening paragraph explains the true divergence of our thinking. Since you were a small child you were taught that the Torah is the only true scripture and all things should be filtered through that. Since I was a small child I have been taught that the entire christian Bible is the Word of God and all things are filtered through that. Doing so has produced a fulfilling life for me and my family and God has never let us down as He is faithful. From my knowledge of your attitudes and your blog writings I would say that you, too, have a fulfilling life as God is faithful to his people. It is hard for me to think only of the Torah and ignore what I believe to be the entire Word of God. This is the part of your logic that I understand differently:
1) Jews and christians both believe in the old testament but christians hold to the new testament for the same reason that the believe in the old. All of scripture was looked at and determined to be the Word of God for the same reasons. There must be an element of blind faith here with the old and new testaments, even though that makes you uncomfortable
2)The important thing is that Jesus is called Lord and Savior not that he is the Jewish idea of Messiah. Jews say that he doesn’t make logical sense as Messiah and I would say that what he accomplished was so much more than what the Jews were looking for. They wanted to fix Israel and Jesus wanted to fix their individual lives. As for the Messianic passages, I would say that if you don’t read them as messianic then you have interpreted them wrong in the Torah. That is where our chidhood teachings make the difference. I was always taught that the only perfect interpretation of a passage is when the Bible interprets it for us. In other words, if it was stated that way in Matthew then that is what God was trying to convey through Hosea whether or not Hosea understood that. One other question here, why is Jesus even in the Talmud if the Talmud is the teachings of God to Moses on Mt. Sinai? To me it sounds like the Talmud has many other opinions in it and not just God’s teaching to Moses.
3)Paul wasn’t persecuting because they were Jews he was a Jewish Rabbi persecuting people because they had a different belief. He was having them killed because of their faith in Jesus. I don’t believe what Paul says because of how he was converted but rather because I believe the truth of scripture.
4)Jesus had given the Pharisees every sign that they needed in life to declare him as Messiah. They had seen the miracles first hand. They had sat in on his teaching, which they couldn’t find anything wrong with. They had every chance but they wanted power and not God’s plan. They plotted how they could kill him and tried to stone him on several occasions. Once again, because I believe the new testament to be God’s Word, I can’t come to any other conclusion but that the Pharisees were crooked and wrong. Jesus had healed a man born blind, healed leperosy, raised lazarus from the dead, all the proof they needed. The pharisees did know that Jesus was raised and they paid off the guards to lie and say that the disciples had stole his body. There could be no proof given to the pharisees to make them understand because they were willingly deaf and blind. Peace, friend.
Jason, Shabbat Shalom! I just wanted to quickly respond to your post…
1) “All of scripture was looked at and determined to be the Word of God for the same reasons. There must be an element of blind faith here with the old and new testaments, even though that makes you uncomfortable”
**The Hebrew Bible has been the same since the very beginning. We never held a council to determine which books to include and which not to include. I believe it was the Council at Nicea in the 3rd century CE when the church A) determined that Jesus is considered G-d, and B) which books will be included in the NT. It was left up to a council of men to determine the deity of Jesus, and which books they’ll thrown in there. Too much of a dice roll for me.
2A) “Jews say that he doesn’t make logical sense as Messiah and I would say that what he accomplished was so much more than what the Jews were looking for. They wanted to fix Israel and Jesus wanted to fix their individual lives. As for the Messianic passages, I would say that if you don’t read them as messianic then you have interpreted them wrong in the Torah.”
**My friend, he doesn’t make logical sense because 90% of the evidence that Christians site point AWAY from him! As for interpreting them wrong, I would have to say that the margin of error would fall on your side of things, as we study teh scriptures in the original language, thus eliminating the possibility of either losing something in the translation or simply misunderstanding the context.
2B)” One other question here, why is Jesus even in the Talmud if the Talmud is the teachings of God to Moses on Mt. Sinai? To me it sounds like the Talmud has many other opinions in it and not just God’s teaching to Moses.”
**There are no references to your Jesus in the Talmud. You’re right in saying that the Talmud has many other opinions in it. I will refer you to the book you just purchased for the explanation on that one. Too long for here.
3) I have no rebuttal here.
4) All I can say is that there were 2 highly-regarded rabbis in that time period…both contemporaries of Jesus- Hillel and Shammai. They were among the greatest Jewish minds and Torah-teachers we’ve ever had. If Jesus was the real deal, they would’ve announced him as messiah. They weren’t Pharisees, and as such had nothing to gain or lose. They were never mentioned in the NT. I wonder why. It’s been rumored that Jesus even sat under Hillel, as many of his teachings and sayings mirrored Hillel’s. Gamaliel is also one of the most revered Talmudic minds in Judaism who is mentioned in Acts. He would’ve also announced Jesus as Messiah, but was a member of the Sanhedrin and had more to lose. There is simply too much left lacking to declare him messiah, and certainly not G-d.
Also, just because Jesus performed miracles does not deam him either messiah or G-d. I have prayed for people and they were healed. I am neither the messiah, nor am I G-d. There were also numerous examples in the Bible of miracles…look at Moshe, Elijah, and Elisha.
This is fun! What else ya got, big guy?
Have a fantastic evening, and blessings to you and your family.
I’ve just spend a long time reading this extremely interesting conversation! Thank you all!
Daniel, you said:
“That which is less than G-d cannot be the same as G-d.”
Welcome to infinity!
Think about what it means when you say “God is infinite.” It does not simply mean “very, very great.”
The number “one googol” (1 with 100 zero’s after it) is very, very great, but it is still finite. Compared to infinity, it’s as small as the number 1.
In math, it is proven that that which is less than infinity can be the same as infinity. The simplest example is as follows:
Take all the natural (counting) numbers: 1,2, 3, … and so on. Agree that there are an infinity of them? O.K. Now take just the odd numbers, 1, 3, 5, 7, … and so on. Agree that there are an infinity of them? But there are less odd numbers than natural numbers, right?
So… is there a smaller infinity and a larger infinity? It’s a little mind-boggling, but no. The set of odd numbers is the same size as the set of all numbers, although the latter has a lot more numbers.
When we say God is infinite, we should understand that it doesn’t just mean that God is very, very, very great, like a googol. It means that God is great in a way that cannot be completely understood by us.
And the example from mathematics is just a parallel. God’s infinity is in creativity, power, goodness, genius, and love, not numbers. But the math example teaches us that our minds are just strong enough to figure out that infinity can be at the same time less than, and equal to, itself, but not strong enough to fully grasp it. In other words, it teaches us humility. We cannot figure infinity out. We cannot figure God out. We should seek him, but never forget that we cannot define him.
That’s why we cannot allow ourselves to get caught up in the contradictions between one Scripture verse and another, or try to define God based on one verse rather than another. We must understand that we are (especially between religions) exactly like the 7 blind men and the elephant; accept that with humility; and concentrate on praising and obeying God.
We should especially be humble (and praise God) because God does, apparently, work miracles through people of all faiths, when they, like our good friend Daniel, love God with all that is in them, and try to lead holy lives.
Recently, I’ve come to understand the story of the Magi in the New Testament as a revelation of this idea. The Magi were apparently not Jewish, though they knew about Israel. They were astrologers! Now, friends, I confess that I am a recent convert. For many years, I was almost sure that science proved there was no God. During my agnostic past, I really looked down on astrology as extremely unscientific. Nonsense. And now that I believe, and believe in the unscientific nonsense that is miracles… I still look down on astrology! So how come the Magi, reading the stars, found Jesus? Does this mean there’s truth to astrology? Should i (shudder) read my HOROSCOPE to know God’s will each day?
No, it only means God USES our misguided beliefs to reach US! The Magi were looking for him in the stars, so God used the stars to guide them. He stoops to reach us. That’s how loving God is. This touches also on the earlier subject of the religious icons. God sees the heart. He said he would write his laws in our hearts. That’s where he wants the law to be. That’s the only thing that counts.
God is like a loving Father of a young child, who delights in the nonsense babble we emit, as long as our hearts are with him. In fact, to his infinite wisdom, even the writings of our best theologians may be babble! (The great mystics have said as much about their own writings).
So, I don’t worry very much about religions not being compatible, contradicting each other. See my blog for more about that.
I don’t worry very much about one Scripture verse contradicting another verse, either, because in addition to teaching math I’ve also worked as a translator. Daniel, you who read Hebrew, must know what a difficult, IMPOSSIBLE thing it is to translate perfectly from one language to another. Traduttore, traditore! say the Italians. To translate well is to rewrite, re-create.
The Bible, even in Hebrew, is translated from God’s “language” to a human language. So it has lost a lot in translation. We are not only blind, but we cannot speak, because God is inneffable, unspeakable.
There are simply NO WORDS to describe God, not even to get close. His love is beyond description. A blazing fire that is as soothing as tranquil waters. Drowning in delight. No, there is just no way to do it justice, not even close.
Pray always.
Thanks Jason for holding fast to the awesome, never failing word of the L-rd.
Karin- Daniel’s wife
What a fantastic article, Odile! Thank you for that!
I’ll comment more later.
Karin,
I am happy to meet you. I already have very fond thoughts of Daniel. It’s refreshing to talk with someone impassioned with knowing and serving God and not propagating religion. I look forward to what else I can learn from him. Peace to you and your family.
Yehudi: Jesus was no kosher rabbi but a charlatan and one of the worst Jews ever (sorry to any Christians but this is the Jewish interpretation). He claimed to be the son of G-d and this is idolatry. The concepts of virgin birth, immaculate conception and demi-gods were very common in the pagan world (other gods who died for the sins of mankind and were the sons of G-d include Mithras, Zoroaster, Dionysus, Osiris, Buddha… you can find out more at jdstone.org)
Anyways, here are my thoughts on the difference between Judaism and Christianity:
Nature of G-d: Judaism believes that G-d is an absolute unity, with no body or form and no divisions. Mainmonides begins his magnum opus, the Mishne Torah, by writing :Thee fundamental of fundamentals and the pillar of wisdom is to know that there is a Prime Cause and a Creator for all that was Created… It has been explained in the Torah and Prophets that the Holy One, Blesses be He, has no shape or form, as it is written: “For Hashem You G-d is G-d in the heavens above and the Earth below” (Joshua 2:11) and the body cannot be in two places at once as it is written “for you haven’t seen any image” (Deuteronomy 4:15) “and to whom will you allegorize Me and compare me?” (Isaiah 40:25) and if He would have a body, it would be similar to all other bodies.
“For I the Lord do not change” (Malachi 3:6). “G-d is not a man” (Numbers 23:19) Clearly, since G-d repeatedly forbids idol worship, G-d cannot be incarnated in a human form. Jews say twice a day, write on their doorposts and say before they die “Hear O Israel, Hashem is our G-d, Hashem is ONE”.
Forgiveness/ Atonement: Christians believe that without JC, everybody is sinful and cannot achieve salvation. Judaism completely rejects that notion and asserts that everyone must atone for their own sins.
“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16, II Kings 14:6).
“But everyone will die for his own sin; each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge” (Jeremiah 31:30).
“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself” (Ezekiel 18:20).
“No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to G-d a ransom for him” (Psalms 49:7).
“So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who has shed it!” (Numbers 35:33).
Atonement and repentance can only be achieved through prayer to Hashem, confession (and in the time of the Temple, may it be rebuild speedily in our days, with sacrifices). The Torah writes:
That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.” (Jeremiah 36:3).
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to the L-rd, and He will have compassion on him; and to our G-d, for He will abundantly pardon.” (Isaiah 55:7).
“I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, `I will confess my transgressions to the L-rd’, and You did forgive the guilt of my sin.” (Psalm 32:5).
“And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (II Chronicles 7:14). “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has practiced he shall live…When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life…Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you (Ezekiel 18:21- 22,27,30).
“By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for…” (Proverbs 16:6).
“If you return to G-d you will be restored; if you remove unrighteousness far from your tent…then you will delight in G-d…” (Job 22:23-27).
“Depart from evil, and do good, so you will abide forever.” (Psalm 37:27, cf. Ezekiel 33, Zechariah 1:3, Jeremiah 26:13).
Intercession: Christianity holds that ‘no one comes to the father except by way of the son’. The Rabbis, however, explain that the Second Commandment ‘Thou shalt have no other gods before me’ means as an intercessor before G-d. G-d is accessible to every single person and we have no need to pray to His ’son’, saints or spirits.
These are just a few difference between Judaism and Christianity, among them are the commandments, the Eternal covenant with Israel…
And JC couldn’ have been the moshiach because he didn’t fulfill any of the criteria. This is from jewsforjudaism.com:
Judge for yourself:
Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?
The Jewish tradition of “The Messiah” has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands “The Messiah” to be a human being – without any overtone of deity or divinity – who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as “The Messiah”.
——————————————————————————–
First of all, he must be Jewish – “…you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you.” (Deuteronomy 17:15)
He must be a member of the tribe of Judah – “The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet…” (Genesis 49:10)
To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.
He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son – “And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever…” (2 Samuel 7:12 – 13)
The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!
He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -”And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.” (Isaiah 11:12)
Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?
He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem – “…and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them..” (Ezekiel 37:26 – 27)
At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!
He will rule at a time of world-wide peace – “…they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore.” (Micah 4:3)
Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?
He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d’s commandments – “My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes.” (Ezekiel 37:24)
The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.
He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d – “And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23)
there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.
All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children’s children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.
If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be “The Messiah.” A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.
Certainly NOT Jesus.
*****
And my comment: The Second Coming has no scriptural basis but is simply a pathetic attempt by Christians to save their man-god myth.
Hashem bless you all!
“The Second Coming has no scrpitural basis but is simply a pathetic attempt by Christians to save their man-god myth.” This has been a very civil discussion to this point. This comment that you have made is exactly why the Bible says that Jesus came to his own but his own received him not. The rejection of Jesus is no surprise to those who study scripture. This one comment that you have made is the single most derisive comment on this thread. With your comment as the basis I would offer that if you believed in the entire Word of God you would see the basis and not disrespect God Almighty by calling deity a man-god. Also, if Jesus had been accepted by the “brood of vipers” called pharisees then there would be no need for a second coming. Now let us return to a civil discussion that points toward Almighty God and not at eachother.
John chapter 5
33
Ye sent unto John, and he bare witness unto the truth.
34
But I receive not testimony from man: but these things I say, that ye might be saved.
35
He was a burning and a shining light: and ye were willing for a season to rejoice in his light.
36
But I have greater witness than that of John: for the works which the Father hath given me to finish, the same works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me.
37
And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
38
And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40
And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
41
I receive not honour from men.
42
But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
43
I am come in my Father’s name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
44
How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
45
Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
46
For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.
47
But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
BK, I appreciate your opinion, though I choose to take a less aggressive approach. We are of the same opinion regarding his claim to messiahship and deity, however, I can appreciate his teachings.
Jason, I apologize for my friend, BK, but everything he posted is true. Nothings points TOWARD Jesus being the messiah, but rather, everything points AWAY from him being the messiah.
BK, you wrote, “Nature of G-d: Judaism believes that G-d is an absolute unity, with no body or form and no divisions. Mainmonides begins his magnum opus, the Mishne Torah, by writing :Thee fundamental of fundamentals and the pillar of wisdom is to know that there is a Prime Cause and a Creator for all that was Created… It has been explained in the Torah and Prophets that the Holy One, Blesses be He, has no shape or form, as it is written: “For Hashem You G-d is G-d in the heavens above and the Earth below” (Joshua 2:11) and the body cannot be in two places at once as it is written “for you haven’t seen any image” (Deuteronomy 4:15) “and to whom will you allegorize Me and compare me?” (Isaiah 40:25) and if He would have a body, it would be similar to all other bodies.
How do you then interpret Genesis 18? As I read it the other night it dawned on me that G-d appeared in the form of a man! Blessings to all involved here…
I’m sorry for being so aggressive and I apologize if I have offended anyone. I would like to continue civily debating this. (Sorry
) Besides that whole little bit about the Second Coming being a pathetic excuse, I hardly think that what I wrote was offensive, but I digress.
Daniel: I assume that what you are refering to is G-d creating man in the His image. Rashi (Rabbi Shlomo ben Yitzhak) explains that this refers to man’s capacity for intellect and reason. Clearly G-d has no physical form but just as G-d is unique among heavenly beings, man is unique among the earthly. He is the only creature that has free will and choice.
Daniel, could you extend to me some of your knowledge of the original hebrew that Genesis was written in? I am curious about the translation of the term “the angel of the LORD” as seen in Genesis 16:7 and 16:9. Does this title refer to a typical angel or does the name imply something else? Thanks for the help! Peace, friend. I hope that your sabbath was restful.
‘For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.’
Deuteronomy 13 refers to JC:
If there arise in the midst of thee a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams–and he give thee a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee–saying: ‘Let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them’; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or unto that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God putteth you to proof, to know whether ye do love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul…And that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams, shall be put to death; because he hath spoken perversion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, and redeemed thee out of the house of bondage, to draw thee aside out of the way which the LORD thy God commanded thee to walk in. So shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
But besides that, the Torah doesn’t warn of JC’s coming. Every single ‘proof text’ is either a misquote, mistranslation or taken out of context.
Again, sorry for the agression- ‘Forgive me father for I have sinned’ LOL
Daniel: ‘however, I can appreciate his teachings. ‘
As our Sages tz”l said: ‘If you are told, there is wisdom among the nations, believe it. If you are told there is Torah among the nations, do not believe it.’
Now who’s taking scripture out of context? This passage is clearly not referring to Jesus as he never preached any other gods. If he did teach other gods then why was he allowed continually to teach from the Torah in the synagogue? Where did he preach anything but his Father?
The idea of him being the Son of G-d, G-d incarnate, is idolatry. Christians pray to Christ, hence the name. G-d is directly accessible to anybody and we do not need an intercessor for our prayers to reach Hashem.
I’m sorry but I don’t know too much ‘New’ Testament but only the Original and True Torah. When did JC teach from the Torah in synagogues? It is hard to conceive of his teachings being accepted by any rabbi or conforming with the Written and Oral Torah. Even if he did, I wouldn’t read too much into it. 1st century CE Judea was full of heretical Jewish sects like the Sadducees and Essenes who believed themselves to be keeping the Torah properly yet were all sinners who perverted G-d’s law.
Jesus taught us how to pray and it wasn’t to him. He taught us to pray as follows:
Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be your name. Your kingdom come, your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever and ever, Amen.
To see Jesus teaching in the synagogue and temple just read eith Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.
And yet didn’t he say that none goes to the Father except by way of the Son ie. him? That means to pray to him and he’ll pass the message along to his Father.
Oh dear. Just when I thought I’d found a non-aggressive conversation between faiths.
People disagree even within faith groups, even within my Bible study group sometimes, on the interpretation of Scriptures. Of course we’ll disagree between faith groups. Are we so weak that we have to resort to name-calling and pointing out sins?
Do you think it pleases God when we defend our notion of Him by accusing each other of idolatry?
Why can’t we be enriched by other’s knowledge, by sharing our different praises of the one, only God?
Why can’t we accept that God loves us all? If God, (GOD!) loves you, who am I do condemn you? To belittle your beliefs? To judge?
Don’t we all believe God forbade us from judging each other?
Isn’t there enough pain in the world, without adding the strident notes of discord?
Don’t we all agree on the immense goodness of our God? On the glory of his infinite wisdom? On the importance of obeying his will command to love one another?
Shalom.
Odile
Hashem says that He is a Jealous G-d and idolatry provokes Him to anger. Of couse G-d loves us all and Christianity is a start but it is not the ideal belief in Him, which is pure monotheism, with no intercessors and man-god worship.
I am not belittling anyone’s beliefs but I do disagree with them. If we are searching for the truth then we must criticize our false notions of G-d. When Moses saw the Jews worshipping the Golden Calf, he didn’t sit down and say ‘I shouldn’t judge’ but he was enraged. Idolatry is anything other than worshipping G-d Himself, by ascribing anything equal holiness to Him, whether it is a rock, tree, His ‘Son’ or saint. Giving him a form is idol worship, plain and simple.
There is nothing wrong with disagreement. The Sages say that every controvers that is for the sake of heaven will be upheld.
Where have I been aggressive?
Daniel,
Lots of action here in my absence! Good. I’m still engaged, but this month I have only a limited amount of time for blogging. I’ll add what I can.
It seems that there are deeper disconnects in this conversation than theological ones. To continue to go blow for blow arguing points from Scripture won’t get us much further since we disagree on what should be considered reliable Scripture.
What bothers me a little right now is that it seems that both of our positions are arrived at by what sources we choose to put our trust (faith) in. The Jewish position is just as ‘out there’ as the Christian. Both require a reset in thinking from a scientific/skepticism worldview in order to embrace. I have to believe that God can transcend (fulfill) His Law, become a human, rise from the grave. You have to believe something even more obscured by history (and equally debated by scholarship) – that a man walked up a mountain and God gave him the first five books of the Bible.
I have much more I’d like to respond to in your last comments directed my way – but will wait in hopes of shorter posts…
Dear Bar Kochba, (if that is your real name and you aren’t using a cowardly pseudonym)
I’m very curious about the Jewish take on the messiah. Are the Jewish people actively waiting/looking for the messiah still? In other words, are they expecting some day to see a direct male descendant of King David that will gather all the Jewish people of the world and cram them back into Israel with a brand new shiny temple while the rest of the world lives in absolute peace and everyone serves the same God?
That’s the criteria you stated, is it not?
I ask only because, in order for your reasoning to work — that Jesus can’t be the messiah since he didn’t fit the criteria — then Jewish people must honestly believe that those things will still happen. Do they?
We continue to await the day that G-d will send the Messiah and bring an end to things as they are. We await it daily and when we pray three times a day, we pray repeatedly for that to come about.
Just as we believed that G-d would send a literal man to redeem us when we were enslaved in Egypt and cram us into Israel with a brand new shiny temple and as he has sent his messengers to redeem us in the past, so he will send his messengers again
G-d does not lie and we know and believe that he will fulfill his promises to us as he has always done.
That’s good to know, Leiber M, if that is your real name.
Please bear with me here, because I don’t know a whole lot about Judaism other than common knowledge, so I’m trying to go off of what has been said here in these comments.
Bar Kochba said this in reference to the requirements to be the messiah:
“He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d – “And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd” (Isaiah 66:23) there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.”
As mentioned, there are billions of people that currently do not acknowledge our God. I’m curious as to what the Jews are expecting from this promise. Is the idea that everyone will convert to Judaism? Because I’m not entirely sure that 6.6 billion people are going to be able to fit into Israel. And furthermore I’m not sure that one shiny new temple is going to be big enough for 6.6 billion people to worship in. Or is the idea that the 13 million current Jews will all go to Israel but the rest of the world will be Christians?
If the latter is the case, then I would question why Jesus wouldn’t be seen as the Messiah. There are currently well over 2 billion Christians in the world. That’s far far far more people acknowledging our God than Judaism (Jews make up less than a half percent of the world’s religious population) has ever come close to achieving. It is it not Jesus that is to thank for that?
Jews don’t believe that all people should become Jews. The idea of ‘accept out faith or burn in hell’ is a Christian one, not a Jewish one. When the Messianic age comes, all of the world will accept the 7 Noahide commandments that G-d set forth in the Torah for non-Jews. You can learn more about them at jdstone.org
They are:
Prohibition of idolatry
Prohibition of blasphemy
Prohibition of murder
Prohibition of theft
Prohibition of illicit relations
Prohibition of eating live meat
Prohibition of failing to establish courts of justice
And about the Temple, G-d promise that it will be rebuild (may it be speedily in our days, amen). The Rabbis relate that despite the crowds, there was always enough room in the Temple, due to a miracle (but that is neither here nor there)
Jews don’t believe that the moshiach, messiah, is divine or the son of G-d. He will simply be a Jewish leader who will briing us back to Torah and will redeem us from the servitude of the nations.
PS Bar Kochba is not my real name. It means ‘Son of a Star’. He was a Jewish revolutionary who fought against the Roman in the 1st century CE and drove them out of Israel. He was eventually killed in the battle over Beitar. How is a blog name cowardly? You don’t know me yet these are my actual opinions.
If I were to use a cowardly pseudonym I’d choose something really tough sounding like Badamofo! Or how about Kickeroflittllefuzzythings. Maybe Gargleswithrazorbladesanddranoforfun. Wow, this is fun, I’ve got to get a new website for all my new blog names. Sorry, Igmule Fordy!!!
I’m just kidding about the cowardly thing. But seriously, I don’t trust people who use hilarious pseudonyms. But that’s off topic.
Again, you’ll have to excuse me if I’m misunderstanding something here. How are you not contradicting yourself by saying that one of the criteria for the Messiah is that all people in the world will acknowledge God, but then saying that Jews don’t care if other people believe in your God, but rather that they should just follow your 7 laws. It would appear that that is a very major contradiction. Am I wrong?
I’d like to explore another thought. Let’s talk some more about this temple. This whole “God promised that that temple would be rebuilt” is nice and all, but does it never strike you as a narrow, small-town view of your future? In world with six and a half billion people, and an apparently infinite universe that God created. Does it not strike you a bit odd to pray 3 times a day for thousands of years for a single stone building to be rebuilt? Now, I don’t mean to say that you shouldn’t or that it is silly. Rather, I just wonder if you’ve ever considered the possibility that the temple is a metaphor. What you might call the temple, us Christians refer to as the Kingdom of God. It’s a bit more grand, don’t you think? And again, it could be argued that Jesus had something to do with the rebuilding.
One more thing. I think too much emphasis is being put on this “Jesus is/was divine and not a man” concept. To be perfectly honest, not all Christians actually fully accept that in the same way that the Catholic church does. I grew up being taught that “God sent his son”, not “God walked around on earth calling himself Jesus.” It’s a big distinction that I find a bit too complicated to simply and merge into the same thing. Jesus was obviously a man. He was born of the flesh and he died the same way any of us would have died. Furthermore, he never directly claims to be God, except to say “I and the Father are one.” Yes, he performed miracles. Yes, he resurrected. But he also prayed… to his Father. Was he praying to himself? Very odd. I don’t mean to take this discussion off course, but I just wanted to make sure your view isn’t that all Christians think Jesus and God are exactly the same thing. I think there are actually multiple views on that. God bless denominations….
Igford, forgive me…but it sounds to me like you don’t have a clue what you believe. If you do, it’s a very shallow level of understanding. You know very little of the very foundation of your faith, (Judaism…the religion of Jesus), and it sounds to me that you don’t much care if Jesus was G-d or not. Inconceiveable to me. In fact, the more I think about this, the more frustrated I get. I’m not even talking about doctrines or statements of faith…I’m just talking about caring enough to know what you believe and have an intelligent response for someone that questions it. Shalom.
Igford, BTW, you wrote, “Rather, I just wonder if you’ve ever considered the possibility that the temple is a metaphor. What you might call the temple, us Christians refer to as the Kingdom of God. ”
In Christian circles, the Temple is considered a metaphor for your body where Christians believe the Ruach HaKodesh dwells. How is it an observant Jew knows more about your faith than you do on such a basic principle?
Dan,
I don’t need to forgive you, because you are entirely correct. My understanding of God is very shallow. What I *believe* is that it is impossible to fully understand God. While many people and many religions feel the need to create doctrines, “hope” that they are right, and then force them upon their children, I’m not like that. I’m in a constant search to learn, and to keep an open mind.
I can understand why to someone like you this might seem like a weakness, but I don’t much care. I’d rather say “I don’t know” and be right than say “I know” and be wrong. I’m constantly testing what I believe and changing it accordingly. But to more directly get to your point, I will say that whatever words and phrases we use to describe “what Jesus was” is irrelevant to Christianity. The fact that we can’t understand exactly what Jesus meant when he said “I and the father are one” has no bearing on anything else that Jesus preached, because whether he was directly God or not, he still opened to the door for salvation to all of us.
You said “and it sounds to me that you don’t much care if Jesus was G-d or not. Inconceiveable to me.” I think this is interesting that you think what I “care” about matters more than the truth. As if I’m supposed to pick a side and defend it simply because I want to be right. That’s an interesting way of looking at theology.
In regards to the Temple as a metaphor. I don’t think we’re talking about the same thing here. I was referring to the prophecy that Bar Kochba mentioned. The one about the Messiah rebuilding the temple. And then he also mentioned that “due to a miracle” the temple would never run out of space, that everyone would fit inside of it. Seems a lot like heaven to me, or something along those lines. “Our body as a temple” is an entirely different metaphor that does not coincide with that prophecy.
Toodles.
Igford, I really liked when you said, “I’m constantly testing what I believe and changing it accordingly.”
I do the same thing to an extent. I love the G-d of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya’akov with all my heart, and I love the traditions of my fathers nearly as much! That said, I want to worship G-d in truth…if I find something that one of the Rabbis said to be in error, I throw it out. I don’t pin my faith to it, and in this way, I allow my faith to evolve.
Now, you said, “The fact that we can’t understand exactly what Jesus meant when he said “I and the father are one” has no bearing on anything else that Jesus preached, because whether he was directly God or not, he still opened to the door for salvation to all of us.” I, of course, disagree with this statement.
Here is what the Bible says about it…
Forgiveness/ Atonement: Christians believe that without JC, everybody is sinful and cannot achieve salvation. Judaism completely rejects that notion and asserts that everyone must atone for their own sins.
“Fathers shall not be put to death for their sons, nor shall sons be put to death for their fathers; everyone shall be put to death for his own sin” (Deuteronomy 24:16, II Kings 14:6).
“But everyone will die for his own sin; each man who eats sour grapes, his teeth will be set on edge” (Jeremiah 31:30).
“The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself” (Ezekiel 18:20).
“No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to G-d a ransom for him” (Psalms 49:7).
“So you shall not pollute the land in which you are; for blood pollutes the land and no expiation can be made for the land for the blood that is shed on it, except by the blood of him who has shed it!” (Numbers 35:33).
Atonement and repentance can only be achieved through prayer to Hashem, confession (and in the time of the Temple, may it be rebuild speedily in our days, with sacrifices). The Torah writes:
That every man will turn from his evil way, then I will forgive their iniquity and their sin.” (Jeremiah 36:3).
“Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts, and let him return to the L-rd, and He will have compassion on him; and to our G-d, for He will abundantly pardon.” (Isaiah 55:7).
“I acknowledged my sin to You, and my iniquity I did not hide; I said, `I will confess my transgressions to the L-rd’, and You did forgive the guilt of my sin.” (Psalm 32:5).
“And if My people who are called by My name humble themselves and pray, and seek My face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.” (II Chronicles 7:14). “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of the righteousness which he has practiced he shall live…When a wicked man turns away from his wickedness which he has committed and practices justice and righteousness, he will save his life…Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you (Ezekiel 18:21- 22,27,30).
“By lovingkindness and truth iniquity is atoned for…” (Proverbs 16:6).
Toodles. (I like that…)
Daniel,
I appreciate and understand where you are coming from, in a way. But in another way, I’m not entirely sure of your intentions. You realize what you’re trying to do is impossible, right? There are at least 2 major leaps of faith in our religions. The 1st is that God exists. The 2nd is that the Bible contains the word of God. So far we’d agree on both of those. But for Christianity, there is a 3rd, and that is that Jesus spoke and acted with the authority of God (that he and the father were one.. that he was the son of God.. that he was God, etc… however we go about explaining it all ends up the same).
It’s obvious that Jews have never accepted that 3rd leap of faith. It is the base of Christianity. Asking us to disregard it would be like someone asking you to disregard anything Moses said. I think Rustin already said something along these lines earlier in the discussion.
And I think it is obvious from previous discussion here that quoting scripture can’t possibly overcome this hurdle. Just as when an atheist asks “Why do you believe the Bible?” we answer “because the Bible said to.” We must also answer the same way about Jesus. No matter how much scripture you quote, we can always quote Jesus as our reasoning for believing Jesus. And when you ask why we believe that our sins are forgiven, it is the words of Jesus that we will quote.
I’m open to discuss and re-evaluate a lot of my belief system, but the authority of Jesus is not something that is up for interpretation.
So I guess that is why I say that what you are trying to do is impossible. We (Jews and Christians) must just agree to disagree on that main difference in our beliefs, and be happy that we at least have some things in common.
Deal!
I continued thinking about what you wrote after I posted my comment…and I just want you to answer a question for me…it has been established that your “Old Testament” is true..established and proven. The NT, not so much. I know that you love G-d …but what if you’re believing a lie? What if you’re worshipping an idol? What if…what if….? I know what you’re about to do. You’re about to shoot the exact same question to me…what if I’m wrong? I’ll pre-empt you and answer it in advance. There are many verses in the Tanakh that prove that I don’t need Jesus (or any person) to atone for my sins. Many of those verses have been quoted in this thread or on the thread on my blog, (https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=4337639183594699780&postID=8705602339255745319)
I’m safe, but what if you’re wrong? What’s “plan B”?
Ah ha… more scriptural proof. This time with a “my scripture is more proven than your scripture” comment to give it some extra oomfph.
I honestly don’t see how this argument could possibly go any further. I will answer your question simply by saying that I feel safe enough that I have absolutely no desire for a “plan B.”
Good luck to you, Daniel, if that is your real name. =)
And good luck to you.